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Allowing the New Surveillance Law to Stand Would Seriously Cripple Our Free Press

Stop the new FISA

Sat, Jul 12, 2008 3:07 pm

more: headline news, privacy, conspiracy

If the sweeping surveillance law signed by President Bush on Thursday -- giving the U.S. government nearly unchecked authority to eavesdrop on the phone calls and e-mails of innocent Americans -- is allowed to stand, we will have eroded one of the most important bulwarks to a free press and an open society.

The new FISA Amendments Act nearly eviscerates oversight of government surveillance. It allows the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to review only general procedures for spying rather than individual warrants. The court will not be told specifics about who will be wiretapped, which means the law provides woefully inadequate safeguards to protect innocent people whose communications are caught up in the government's dragnet surveillance program.

The law, passed under the guise of national security, ostensibly targets people outside the country. There is no question, however, that it will ensnare many communications between Americans and those overseas. Those communications can be stored indefinitely and disseminated, not just to the U.S. government but to other governments.

This law will cripple the work of those of us who as reporters communicate regularly with people overseas, especially those in the Middle East. It will intimidate dissidents, human rights activists and courageous officials who seek to expose the lies of our government or governments allied with ours. It will hang like the sword of Damocles over all who dare to defy the official versions of events. It leaves open the possibility of retribution and invites the potential for abuse by those whose concern is not with national security but with the consolidation of their own power.

I have joined an ACLU lawsuit challenging the new law along with other journalists, human rights organizations and defense attorneys who also rely on confidentiality to do their work. I have joined not only because this law takes aim at my work but because I believe it signals a serious erosion of safeguards that make possible our democratic state. Laws and their just application are the only protection we have as citizens. Once the law is changed to permit the impermissible, we have no recourse with which to fight back.

I spent nearly 20 years as a foreign correspondent for the New York Times, as well as other news organizations. I covered the conflict in the Middle East for seven years. I have friends and colleagues in Jerusalem, Gaza, Cairo, Damascus, Tehran, Baghdad and Beirut. I could easily be one of those innocent Americans who are spied on under the government's new surveillance authority.

The reach of such surveillance has already hampered my work. I was once told about a showdown between a U.S. warship and the Iranian navy that had the potential to escalate into a military conflict. I contacted someone who was on the ship at the time of the alleged incident and who reportedly had photos. His first question was whether my phone and e-mails were being monitored.

What could I say? How could I know? I offered to travel to see him but, frightened of retribution, he refused. I do not know if the man's story is true. I only know that the fear of surveillance made it impossible for me to determine its veracity. Under this law, all those who hold information that could embarrass and expose the lies of those in power will have similar fears. Confidentiality, and the understanding that as a reporter I will honor this confidentiality, permits a free press to function. Take it away and a free press withers and dies.

I know the cost of terrorism and the consequences of war. I have investigated Al Qaeda's operation in Europe and have covered numerous conflicts. The monitoring of suspected terrorists, with proper oversight, is a crucial part of our national security. But this law is not about keeping us safe, which can -- and should -- be done in a constitutional manner and with judicial oversight. It is about using terrorism as a pretext to permit wholesale spying and to silence voices that will allow us to maintain an open society.

Chris Hedges was part of the team of New York Times reporters who won a Pulitzer Prize in 2002 for reporting on global terrorism. He is the author of many books, including "War Is the Force that Gives Us Meaning."

» add a comment

I know you are, but what am I?

Aug 2 2008, 2:24 pm

you're funny, I'm not the republican here, this isn't opposite day. seriously.

back at cha

Aug 2 2008, 12:58 pm

You republicans are a weird bunch . First you yell racism and then you make racist jokes about poor blacks eating chicken . go to h--- !

hey, Tard,

Aug 2 2008, 12:30 pm

Talking about yourself again? That's called "projection" and it's not healthy. Also I find it very insulting that you called me a Republican, that's low, and very wrong. If anyone's a repugnantian it's "under the radar", or you, as you both share their views.

Hold on there

Aug 2 2008, 11:50 am

Thats racist . One of the stereo types ya'll talking about ?
Something about chicken ...? Couldn't mean any thing else .
Shame on you Republicans . You ought to be ashamed .

GEE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aug 1 2008, 7:46 pm

Dat's better.

here's one

Aug 1 2008, 2:20 pm

why did the chicken cross the road? ... To use a payphone to call his dealer, he can't trust his cell phone not to be tapped with this new amendment to the FISA laws!

Aug 1 2008, 2:16 pm

SOME ONE TELL A BETTER "JOKE"!!!!!
CAUTION: UNDER THE RADAR, LIKES IT WHEN PEOPLE LOOSE THERE
COOL, SO IF YOU HAVE ANY COOL AT ALL, DON'T WAIST IT ON THIS
JOKER.

I know you are, but what am I?

Aug 1 2008, 11:57 am

are you so dumb you even answer rhetorical questions?

HAHA

Aug 1 2008, 10:25 am

Still trying to save face ? Damn , you're really eat up with it . Do you run with scissors ?

you still think you're right?

Aug 1 2008, 7:16 am

seriously, you need to read more, if you had any attention span you'd know that YOU are wrong, there's no such thing as "raceahol" and you are very childish. this guy is spin spam. if you don't see that and see his true implication you probably never will. I would pity you, but you don't deserve it.

HaHa

Jul 31 2008, 5:24 pm

Race-a-holic with Foot in Mouth -atosis ? heh heh

wait,

Jul 31 2008, 12:44 pm

who's a Repugnantian now? I'm not, you meant that other guy, right?

yes they do.

Jul 31 2008, 12:40 pm

they all believe the simple lie over the complex truth, and blurr the lines to make everyone believe it too.

Still talking to yourself !

Jul 31 2008, 12:11 pm

You are the only proof necessary . All you republicans think alike .

still talking to yourself?

Jul 31 2008, 11:31 am

thanks for proving my point about small minds.

raceAholic

Jul 31 2008, 9:25 am

and it still smarts .

haha

Jul 31 2008, 8:57 am

aren't you the raceaholic that just got your ass reamed here . Sounds like the voice of expierence . I'll have to take your word for it .

Over your head

Jul 31 2008, 8:17 am

Small things amuse small minds.

haha

Jul 31 2008, 7:51 am

race-aholic ? thats funny too.

Under the Radar

Jul 31 2008, 6:47 am

oh yes , I almost forgot .
You DID come back as predicted .
Kinder , you wouldn't know "checked" even if you invented it .

Under the Radar

Jul 31 2008, 6:38 am

Finally !!

kinder

Jul 30 2008, 9:43 pm

To Under:
In reality you just got checked.
I.m out peace!!!!!!!!

says you

Jul 30 2008, 7:35 pm

I have no reason to believe or listen to you, considering how innacurate alot of other things you say are. you are just spam, off topic, backwards, and politically motivated spam, I'm not going to give it audience anylonger, plus you aren't really listening to my side of the arguement, so words are wasted on you, feel free to spin your ass off and spout more bullshit, No one will listen to you anymore, have fun wasting time.

Under the Radar

Jul 30 2008, 3:37 pm

If you saw things so clearly , you wouldn't feel the need to save face so bad . Its typical and understandable .
You were made out to be a fool in a public place . BUT , did you learn anything from it ? Thats the point . I'm willing to bet the answer is no , and your stupidity will continiue which is also part of the demonstration .
Since you brought up "details " lets talk about them .
I threw a joke out there , not addressed to you or anyone else . You jumped in ( as race-aholics do) with both feet and have only been TRYING to save face ever since . the joke has gotten funnier and funnier with each post as you realize you did something stupid but just can't stop . Thats hilarious LOL . And to top it off , you'll be back for even more ! hahahahah this has never worked so well !
I've got a group of people here holding there sides over this .

details

Jul 30 2008, 2:19 pm

are important. you see things very blurry, I see very clearly.

funny

Jul 30 2008, 2:17 pm

it's funny when stupid people like you cast their own problems onto other people.

Under the Radar

Jul 30 2008, 12:52 pm

and yes I said "sould it " . my bad!

Under the Radar

Jul 30 2008, 12:51 pm

Only in your mind , as the previous postings serve as testimony of your folly to even the most casual observer .
Maybe you should think before you leap next time ? That souldn't be to much of an effort ..or would it ?

actually

Jul 30 2008, 12:28 pm

It's the other way around. you are the joke. +

Under the Radar

Jul 30 2008, 11:33 am

to what ever you call yourself next :
You tryed to spin this into a racial thing and fell on your face . Which WAS the joke . Now you cry foul simply because you lack the expertise to accomplish another spin ?
Boy , this is turning out better than I thought it would .

and the puchline keeps rolling along ....

by the way, ray

Jul 30 2008, 11:08 am

Don't you have something to do with your time other than pretend your right? don't you have a job? or are you paid to be a moron, like fox news?

to the simpleton

Jul 30 2008, 11:02 am

you are oversimplifying and dodging the issue. This obviously isn't about the word turtle. You sure are going out of your way to spin this.

Under the Radar

Jul 30 2008, 10:34 am

" Nappy headed ho "? versus "turtle " ? you're really going way out on a limb to justify your faulty perception .
Its ok . I really expected a better job at damage control though . Republican ?

nappy headed ho!

Jul 30 2008, 10:16 am

was that racist to call someone a nappy headed ho? some think it was, some think it wasn't, didn't say black, but it implies a racial stereotype, so in a big way, it is, comparing that to saying that obama couldn't get "there" without help, doesn't know what to do because "he's out of his element", and that someone will "eventually knock him off", you didn't say why, but it is definetly implied.

hey

Jul 30 2008, 10:03 am

can I buy some pot from you? your's must be great.

Hey by the way

Jul 30 2008, 8:52 am

You didn't vote for obama in the state primary ?
Thats mighty racist of ya . Using your rational , the only reason you didn't is because he is black ! What other reason could there be .
Kinda sounds funny coming back at you ...doesn't it .

wow

Jul 30 2008, 8:27 am

some motherfuckers are always trying to iceskate uphill...

Under the Radar

Jul 30 2008, 5:48 am

You're finally correct on one thing anyway ..I do know what I meant . And the point was made splendidly . I understand your embarrassment but you took the ball and ran with it on your own .

ps : you voted for Hilary ? If thats what you meant to do I don't see the problem . Did you base it on race ?

Jul 29 2008, 9:06 pm

I voted for hillary in my states primary.

by the way

Jul 29 2008, 9:05 pm

you ARE an asshole, and ignorant, you clearly haven't read more than 5 words out of my posts, I explained why you're full of shit and all you listen to is the part calling you an asshole. minus that word, read it again. you think I'm the joke just because I pointed out the racist implication of what you said? denial isn't proof of innocence. You know damn well what your post meant.

I see,

Jul 29 2008, 8:44 pm

you make a statement based on racial stereotypes, then when they call you racist, deny it and say "why drag race into it?" and call them stupid. brilliant, you should be a scientist...

LOL

Jul 29 2008, 5:42 pm

haha post turtle eh. lol

Congrats

Jul 29 2008, 4:45 pm

i was wondering when you was going to let him in on it . Point well made .
I quess it would be a mistake to think anybody learned anything from this exercise ?

Remember : Ignorance just means you don't know any better.
Stupid is what you get when your ignorance has
been revealed but you choose to stick with it .

Under the Radar

Jul 29 2008, 2:15 pm

YOU are the punch line ! Don't you get it ? With several others posting and giving you hints and you still don't get it ? LOL hahahah
Can YOU read ? And still trying to make a racial thing out of it ... the punch line is ..YOU .
HAHAHAHAH what a dweeb ..set 'em up and knock 'em down . And the most funny part is some "asshole " always demnostrates their stupidity . all you have to do is give 'em enough rope and they hang themselves EVERY damn time . LOL hahahahah
I know ,you still don't get it ... HAHAHAHAHA

can you read?

Jul 29 2008, 1:48 pm

you aren't listening very well, it makes sense about mccain for the reasons specified, and I still don't see the punchline. apparently you think that a black man could never get there without help, and that a black man wouldn't know what to do, and will eventually get "knocked off" by someone, implying something I don't feel comfortable saying. where's the joke in that, asshole?

Under the Radar

Jul 29 2008, 4:12 am

yea , it was a joke . A funny joke .
Ohh I see , if it was about McCain you'd be all for it ? OK , its about McCain . Is it still a racist joke ?

it wasn't a joke

Jul 28 2008, 6:08 pm

didn't look like a joke, and I get alot of jokes. where was the funny part? you said he couldn't get "there" by himself, that he doesn't know what to do, and that he will eventually be knocked off, where's the punchline? where's the zinger? where's anything in that post suggesting it was a joke? the fact that it's such a wild misrepresentation of who he is? is that the joke? It would have made alot more sense if it was the same thing but with mccain, because then it would be accurate, mccain had alot of help getting where he is, he clearly doesn't know what he's doing and can only spin, confused, and sooner or later, old age or his own imcompetence will take him out.

o 'really?

Jul 28 2008, 5:58 pm

what's the punchline? where's the zinger? we all love to laugh.

Under the Radar

Jul 28 2008, 1:36 pm

yea , I told a joke . it was funny .
Anything else from me is in response to false accusations from the "we love Obama "(amen ) crew .
All you really needed to do was say "I don't like your joke " but thats not what was said . So , as long as you keep coming back to run your mouth , I will keep coming back to respond . Funny how it works out that way .
As far as your republican remarks , i'm sure you know more about them than I do and defer .

note : I accept no responsibility for posts made by others.

Did you hear the one about Obama (amen ) walks into a bar with a nun and a basset hound ........?

what is wrong with you?

Jul 28 2008, 6:18 am

first you say he was put there and couldn't get there by himself, doesn't know what to do, and will get knocked off, all of which is bullshit, then you try to play it off as a joke, and act like we are "on a pedistal" or that we think he's godlike when no one suggested that, and you go as far as to suggest that we are the ones spouting ignorance. as for "helping", he is already the presidential nominee, not to mention that you are the one who came here spouting shit about obama unprovoked and off topic, we simply called you on your bullshit and you kept slinging it, while trying to stay "under the radar", but we see you. also you're not fooling anyone by patting yourself on the back with different names. Also the word turtle wasn't the problem, but you know that. strawman arguements don't work against educated people. BTW, I hope you realize that you are being rediculusly obvious with your attempts to spin and slander and are failing to realize you have no audience, you are displaying the typical republican attack method at work, slander, distort, misquote, lie, and repeat. Considering the fact that you keep coming back trying to persuade anyone reading that you're right, it is clear that you're the one stuck here, standing on an imaginary pedestal spouting ignorance, who shouldn't breed, as you put it. I'd keep explaining how dumb and wrong you are but the thought of you makes me sick. P.S. the timing of your first post is a bit of a givaway too, it came right after a more on topic and important arguement came to a standstill, you chose to "break the ice" with that off topic piece of bullshit slander with no basis in fact.

Person of Color

Jul 27 2008, 11:39 am

It was funny . You don't speak for us .

I don't get it ?

Jul 27 2008, 8:19 am

Racist : hatred or intolerance for another race or races .
Talking about the Presidential race ? or politicians in general is racist ? Or just if you make a remark at a Democrat ? An actual racial remark would make this easier to follow .

Turtle : an amphibious reptile .
Is this some kind of racial slur that just hasn't made its way around yet ? I got some ethnic people next door . I'm going to go outside and yell TURTLE and see what happens .
I'm fairly certain they won't take it that way .

to under the radar : you've done this experiment elsewhere unless I'm mistaken using the same name and nearly the same exact wording . You're getting sloppy . :>)

to kinder : have a hissy somewhere else .

I thought

Jul 27 2008, 7:55 am

it was funny to .

Under the Radar

Jul 27 2008, 6:10 am

playing you like a fiddle and you're not even bright enough to see it or respond to it .
NO racist remarks were made or suggested . It's like the boy that cried wolf ( i don't have time to explain that story to you ) Constant use of the race card where it isn't warranted has deminished its meaning . Hell , you're even assuming I'm white .
If you truly believed Obama (amen ) could get elected on his own merits , you wouldn't be trying to "help" ( and I use that term loosely) and spout such ignorance here .
It's a good thing you 'tards are stuck here rather than somewhere you stupidity might breed .
yea , it was funny to a lot of people , in the "hood" / country / suburbia / city / town/ state . etc. etc. . Step down off that imaginary pedestal you think you're standing on .
hahahaahah sorry , i'm actually laughing at you now .

To under

Jul 26 2008, 5:54 pm

O.K. you think it's funny, go down in the hood and tell it.
And as far as Obama,being a god or something, he's just a man.All else remains to be seen.
YOU HAVE A NICE DAY

KINDER

someone else

Jul 26 2008, 5:02 pm

Mccain is the post turtle.

to under

Jul 26 2008, 4:41 pm

really? you think it was funny? or do you just want people to pass your bullshit around? You get over yourself, you are nothing but a racist. also those remarks about mccain were very accurate, your remarks about obama are not.

Under the Radar

Jul 26 2008, 7:43 am

to O'Riley
That is correct . Now you're getting it ! Or are you....

to Over
yea , it was . Feel free to pass it around .

radar o.riley

Jul 26 2008, 7:26 am

grumpy didn't make and race remarks you goof !

Over the Radar

Jul 26 2008, 6:46 am

to below ,
You should apologize for making racist statements BUT only after "Grumpy" apologizes for his racist statements .

porch tutles ? it was funny ..heh heh

Under the Radar

Jul 26 2008, 4:56 am

You people are taking yourselves wayyyy to serious . I realize Obama (amen) is your god or something , but it was funny by most peoples standards . As far as being anything racict , I don't mind if you think that . I don't doubt you think a lot of stupid things . So , get over yourselves or figure out how to put up no trespassing signs at this site .

to under

Jul 25 2008, 8:01 pm

why are you posting here anyway? this story is old, and you have nothing to say, you just sling your bullshit trying to bring down Obama and act like everyone else is wrong. By the way just because you didn't say the word black doesn't mean you're not being racist and ignorant. It is very clear what you were saying. you're talking shit.

kinder ps

Jul 25 2008, 6:34 pm

It ain't funny, no matter how you tell it, do you have any
clue as to what time it is,Under. You just stept in it.

Under the Radar

Jul 25 2008, 4:38 pm

to -to under : How "racist" of you to assume racism based only on your lack of interpretation .

to- kinder : "o..its that time of month" ? How superior of you . Its a good thing YOU had YOU around to help with that .

to - ps : Maybe you should grow a sense of humor .

Jul 25 2008, 4:18 pm

You might want to take your stand-up act and sit down.

kinder

Jul 25 2008, 4:12 pm

To under the radar:
O......... it,s THAT TIME OF MONTH.

to under

Jul 25 2008, 10:11 am

your assumption that he couldn't get there by himself has to be based on something, now why would a senator not be able to run for president and get the nomination without help, and what makes you think he wouldn't know what to do? could it have to do with the fact that he's black? there's no other reason to doubt his abilities, so if those assumptions you make are based on his race, how is it not racism?

Under the Radar

Jul 25 2008, 6:26 am

to grumpy - probably.
Kinder - depends who you ask
Undercover Racist - do you know what "racist " means ( no , it doesn't mean turtle , try again )

Grumpy old man

Jul 25 2008, 1:17 am

mccain's is 70something years old, and it shows, he's a senile, insane old man who shouldn't be allowed to drive. He can't even get his own lies strait. He's a flip floper if there ever was one. The strait talk express is a joke, a bad one, a catch phrase that can be boiled down to "trust me, I'm telling you that I'm telling you the truth, so it must be true, no matter what the facts are...". He does not know how to handle forein policy, being a POW does not equal being a president, it will not positivly effect you're forien policy credability or decision making skills. Mccain is highly hypocritical when comparing rhetoric and action, his positions on issues and his votes. His policies are 95% the same as bush's. He has played the first negative political ad of the race after pledging to run a clean campaign.

to Undercover racist.

Jul 24 2008, 11:23 pm

that was racist of ya.

kinder

Jul 24 2008, 3:04 pm

To under the radar:
Is that a fact or is it that time of the month?

Under the Radar

Jul 24 2008, 11:52 am

Obama is a post turtle . You see post turtles while driving through rural areas every now and then . A turtle sitting on top of a fence post put there by some bored kid and the simularities are the same .
1) the turtle could never have gotten there without help.
2) He doesn't really know what to do cause he's out of his element.
3) he can only spin around confused
4) eventually somebody comes along and knocks him off ....

to below

Jul 21 2008, 9:59 am

I'll follow your advice when you follow your advice .

Just babbleing huh?

Jul 21 2008, 9:38 am

that may be your opinion, but it's just that. If you have nothing to say, say nothing.

to below

Jul 21 2008, 5:14 am

no , the post I referred to was just babble , sorry .
The two posts under this one may be your impression of how things stand , and thats cool , but its just that . Nobodies holding it against you .

oh, and BTW

Jul 20 2008, 4:32 pm

I just read an earlier post by common, and wanted to say, there are alot of recommendations by the 9/11 commission that haven't been acted on,(spying on americans wasn't one of them.) and history proves that bush was given alot of info telling him that something was going on, and that he failed to act on that day as well, he was much more interested in how to profit from it and maybe start a few wars...

ahem.

Jul 20 2008, 4:20 pm

actually I did, I was clarifying some things I said earlier, if you know that and think I didn't get my point across how about this: Common sense said that FISA insures only people outside the us are being monitored, I pointed out that in fact all US communications are monitored, there was a man working for at&t who personally connected all the phone and internet circuts to a machine in room 641A that records everything so the gov't can look at it, not just some of it, not just calls from overseas, not just from "know terrorists phones", all of it, all american phones and internet, recorded by a machine. Now that Fisa no longer issues warrents or reviews individual cases, they will listen to and watch whoever they choose with no oversight, and share whatever info they want with other gov't agencies, maybe even with third parties. personally, seeing how the bush administration abuses the power they already have, all the political firings and other examples of overwhelming parisanship I don't trust them to be objective with that kind of power. Not to mention that there was absolutely no need to change FISA if they only cared about trying to catch terrorists, FISA was fine the way it was, it is called the Foriegn Intelligence Survelance Act for a reason, that's what it was built for, but these amendments to it basicallly render it worthless, a rubber stamp, exept they handed the stamp to bush to do whatever he wants with it. The FISA court once determined if any given case of spying was justified and not just eavesdropping, and issued a warrent for it if it was legit, but no more, again, they no longer "do" warrents. and then there is 641A, which, as I mentioned, holds the "omnitap" as it could be called, which records all internet and phone traffic in the US. Are you doing the math? Quick review, an amendment that eliminates oversight of spy programs + a machine the records all phone and internet traffic + an administration with a history of abuse of power = ??? ??????? do you know the answer? do I have to spell it? have I said enough yet? We on the same page? are you even reading the book?

to below

Jul 20 2008, 6:40 am

good , because you haven't really said anything .

let me be more clear

Jul 19 2008, 11:17 am

I meant you misread alot of what I said. for example when you said that the 641A issue was "still in the allegations stage" and the facts are "still being explored" as opposed to just being a documented fact, and I said "still in the allegations stage? according to who, bush's lawyers?" because it has been known as true for a while now, but (assumingly)bush's lawyers would say something like that line there to stall or delay or deny or just spin the facts. I wasn't inferring that you knew bush's lawyers, that's just silly. however considering the medium of text we are using misinterpretations like that aren't unheard of, so no big deal there. You misunderstood and made assumptions about other things too, like when you assumed I only get my news and info from hightimes, you are way off. then there's the curious line saying "it is written in english", I won't even go there. anyway I'll wrap this post up..

while I'm here

Jul 19 2008, 10:50 am

that porch example doesn't line up with the situation, close, but not quite, in the context of the surrounding laws the immunity apparently refers to civil suits, but not criminal cases, meaning that say, if barack becomes president and his attorney general investigates and discovers that in fact a criminal case is there to be made, they don't have immunity against that, however if you or I are arrested as a direct result of telecom companies complying with this illegal spy program we aren't allowed to bring a case against them, even if they had no just cause to spy on us and even if we are found not guilty of anything and being arrested destroyed our family buisness like a pizza shop or something, or just sueing them from trampleing on our rights as citizens, can't do it. I forget what the rest of your post said so I'll end this one on that point.

Common Sense

Jul 19 2008, 10:39 am

Misread you ?
""in that room that does what you say it doeasn't do " if that wasn't you , don't answer to it .

to common

Jul 19 2008, 10:26 am

you misread me. also I don't use Hightimes as my source of info, just to be clear.

Common Sense

Jul 19 2008, 10:14 am

I have never stated the allegations about 641A aren't true .
You assume to much .

Common Sense

Jul 19 2008, 10:12 am

yes , I read the story .
FISA has documentation associated with it . The changes made to FISA are recorded on this documentation . It is written in english . It is also not included in this article . Sorry , you'll have to get your info from somewhere besides H/T . I suggest you look it up as it is a public document . Type in FISA and that will get you to DC.
The telecom immunity you speak of concerns liability lawsuits not illegal matters . I can sue you for falling on your porch , but I can't sue you for having a porch because its not illegal to have one .( don't try to hard on this . The same principles apply )
Yes , the allegations about room 641A are documented . What isn't documented is the final outcome .
No , I don't know who Bushs lawyers are .

here's a link for ya

Jul 19 2008, 9:29 am

go to countdown.msnbc.com then click on special comments, then "on FISA and telecom immunity", there is a segment quoting the man from at&t who installed the wires of the very machine in that room that does what you say it doesn't do.

to common nonsense

Jul 19 2008, 9:24 am

Still in the allegations stage? according to who, bush's lawyers? It's well documented.

to common nonsense

Jul 19 2008, 9:17 am

First, did you even read this story? Second, to which documentation do you refer? Third, why do you think they want immunity if what they are doing isn't against the law? Lastly, why would the telecom companies have to obey an illegal order, do you believe the falsehood that "If the government does it, it isn't illegal"?

Common Sense to 641A

Jul 19 2008, 9:17 am

That is still in the allegations stage .The facts of that matter are still being explored .

:o)

Jul 19 2008, 9:07 am

only 7 minutes between the last two posts . Watch it ! You won't be warned again !

641A

Jul 19 2008, 9:05 am

is the name of the room in which all internet and phone traffic in the US is copied for the Gov't to look at.

Common Sense

Jul 19 2008, 8:29 am

A lot of worry over nothing . If you read the documentation you will find the changes don't really mean a lot as some of you have suggested . Warrants are not reguired for "surveillence directed at persons reasonably believed to be outside the US ." FISA "insures only persons outside the US are being monitored" and telecom companies have to comly with the governments request . Removing any loop holes that would allow a law suit . You people should read up on what your planning to talk about .

ok, back to seriousness please

Jul 19 2008, 8:22 am

now, what were we just talking about?

Umm

Jul 19 2008, 7:42 am

an elephant has 4 legs to . Who is represented by a elephant ? Donkeys are used to deliver coffee to poor people in south america . And who lives in south america ? Southerners !

Jul 19 2008, 7:15 am

an Irish donkey salesman ?

:o)

Jul 19 2008, 7:05 am

Don't forget actualy & also makes 4 (four). And everybody knows a 4 leaf clover has 4 leaves , just like the amount of hooves a donkey has . And who is represented with a donkey ? The plot thickens !!!!!!!!

also

Jul 19 2008, 6:41 am

It's no secret at all that I am both "having fun" and "did you know" but I am not kinder.

actually

Jul 19 2008, 6:39 am

it was 9, 12, 7, and 4, I think...

:o)

Jul 19 2008, 6:32 am

YAyyyyyyyyyyy one minute . Now beat that !

timing check #2

Jul 19 2008, 6:31 am

FINI !

Timing check #1

Jul 19 2008, 6:30 am

ready set go !

:o)

Jul 19 2008, 6:07 am

I see where you are going with the timing thing .
15 minutes betweeb posts , 12 minutes and 4 minutes all adding up to 31 minutes .
Then just 10 minutes between Just having Fun and Hey did you know . Followed by Kinder and seems like it at 45 minutes adding up to 55 minutes . Add them all together and you get 86 minutes , which is 1 whole hour and 26 minutes .
OH YES , theres something going on here . Thanks for pointing that out .

seems like it

Jul 19 2008, 12:05 am

I noticed the timing between R C and M A's comments are a little unusual, plus there's usually a delay on this site nowadays, so It's very likely that the two are one in this case, I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed.

kinder

Jul 18 2008, 11:22 pm

Oh like talking to your self?

Hey, did you know?

Jul 18 2008, 8:03 pm

In order to know both sides of something, you actually have to listen to what the other side says.

just havin' some fun,

Jul 18 2008, 7:53 pm

however, it's a bit odd that you only pay attention to that post and not the one before it, the one that addresses the issue...

Mature Adult

Jul 18 2008, 1:03 pm

Sometimes yes , sometimes no . it all depends.

Reality Check

Jul 18 2008, 12:59 pm

HAHA , no . I don't worship any party in particular . You have to know both sides of an issue before you can honestly form an opinion . Are you ?

Mature Adult

Jul 18 2008, 12:52 pm

to reality , just cutious . Are you a Republican ? I see that has been thrown into the mix .

Reality Check

Jul 18 2008, 12:40 pm

yea , I know . Just making a point .

Mature Adult

Jul 18 2008, 12:31 pm

to Reality,
You've confused this individual . I doubt you'll get an answer .

Reality Check

Jul 18 2008, 12:14 pm

LOL ... I see you've chosen the juvenile rational option .
Most do . Its fairly typical .
Just for grins and giggles ( for me anyway ) just what do you think needs to be done ?

Reality Check

Jul 18 2008, 11:54 am

I believe that the reality of the situation is exactly what the Gov't says it is, after all, why would the Gov't lie to me?

to Really a Chicken

Jul 18 2008, 11:43 am

you need to understand the point made by "hello?", the one you keep ignoring everytime it comes up, primarily the fact that Bush had enough power to spy on terrorists before the changes to FISA. The changes made have nothing to do with stopping terror, and everything to do with broadly expanding his power to wiretap anyone for any reason or no reason, and giving phone and internet companies immunity for allowing him to break the law, and he no longer has to tell the FISA court who he taps or why or for how long, they no longer rule on individual warrents. In short the only thing stopping him from monitoring all phone and email traffic was FISA, and now they have been forced to stand aside. Now ask yourself, If they already had the power to spy on known and suspected terrorists and even spy first and get a warrent retroactivly through FISA, why was that not enough? Why would he deliberately eliminate the only oversight to the seemingly justified spying program? The answer is obvious, because what he wanted to do would never be given the greenlight, he wanted to spy on everyone. do you really believe that they would only spy on the calls made to or from overseas? wouldn't they already be spying on you if they know who is calling who and where? you think they only listen to that one call? ever been called by a telemarketer or call a computer help line? chances are one or two of those calls were from or to overseas, then, by their rules, if those are the rules, they could listen to every call you made ever since. And that may be giving them to much slack, it isn't unreasonable to assume they already have all US phones tapped, how else would they catch an overseas call in time? Another thing is, what terrorist anywhere is going to call an american phone and say, "so, how's the evil plan to blow something up going? when was that happening again? and how?" so the whole thing is flawed. However, by their logic, if they have their way, they'd say the whole worlds phones should be monitored, "just to be safe". But what am I telling you this for, you clearly don't read the othersides arguement judging from your responses, you might read one or two words, just enough to try to attack the messenger or throw some gov't talking points at us... for someone saying it has nothing to do with "worshoping a political party" or drinking the koolaid you sure are doing alot of both.

Reality Check

Jul 18 2008, 11:33 am

Your list of "facts " aren't all that factual .

1) depends on who's phone and for what reason ie: known terrorist numbers and national security . Under normal conditions you would be correct , but , we ain't talking about normal circumstances and IS legal , thats what the whoopla is all about .

2) see #1)

3)There is no "clear " violation of the 4th amendment . When did FISA cause you to be harrassed by anyone ?

4) "Probaly committed" ? interesting ..and you condemn the gov for thinking this way ? Pot calling the kettle black ?
also "probably " is not defined as fact ..it is a guess

5) name one instance when you , or anybody you know , had their pricacy violated by FISA . I'm sure you can't .

FISA only monitors known terrorists numbers . Your privacy is in no danger intil you call that terrorist number . It would be stupid to assume conversing with enemies of this country does'nt deserve some attention .

TropicalBrainForest

Jul 18 2008, 10:17 am

Well, we know that there are roughly 400,000 names on the terror watch list. And on top of that, one entry for every alias that person goes by. But I'm willing to guess that there's plenty of innocent folk on the terror watch list. I mean i believe that at one point Cat Stephens was denied entry into the United States because he was on some form of a watch list. Great job Bush, protecting us from the destruction of all those soft rock hits. I mean really, you don't have to do shit to get put on the terror watch list and it's supposed to be growing by about 20 names daily. And to the person who loves these facts so much

Fact #1: Tapping phones without a warrant is illegal.

Fact #2: Telecom companies giving up your phone records without a warrant is illegal.

Fact #3: This law allows clear violation of your 4th amendment right not to be harassed by the government.

Fact #4: This law grants Bush immunity from war crimes that he probably committed.

Fact #5: This Law grants immunity to the telecom companies who broke the law and violated your privacy.

This is probably the last time i'll post on here because its getting to the point where we're all just re-hashing the same arguments. On my side are the LAWS and FACTS of the situation and on the other side are SCARE TATCICS and an administration that has a predisposition for LYING ABOUT EVERYTHING! What do you believe?

Reality Check

Jul 18 2008, 8:37 am

Well , lets see ....
Some of you think this terrorist problem is trivial and you are dead set against taking precautions to insure they don't succeed ,or you just doubt there is a terrorist problem , its all just made up ?... interesting . You do realize you're in the minority on this right ? I see you feel strongly that you are right and everybody else is wrong but , you do realize you're in the minority on this , right ? I can't stress that enough because I don't think you get what that means . Its got nothing to do with "koolaid" or what political party you worship or any brainwashing ignorance you're fixing to throw my way . It has to do with the REALITY that

1) terrorist do exist and want to blow you away according to their own words and actions ..like it or not.

2) Uncle Sam wants to prevent them from blowing you up ..like it or not

Those are the bare undeniable facts . All the WHAT IF's and would , should and coulds do nothing to deminish those facts .
I just want to make the point again , you're in the minority on this one .

kinder

Jul 17 2008, 11:39 pm

This country has taught us all very well who the bad guys are. Just pick any u.s. major conflect! Yep, bad guys.
Every race,color,creed in america at one point in america
yeh a bad guy.
So do we just except that this current admin, there the good guys? The line is very thin and now it can be crossed any time.

also

Jul 17 2008, 7:55 pm

how many "terrorists" has this spying on US actually caught, and how many innocent people have been caught in the net and accused of terror? considering every time we catch someone "big" they play it on the news for weeks, and that happens, like, what, one or two times a year? plus how many people are in the prisons that haven't been tried or charged, and how many get released, it's evident that they are arresting much more innocent people than guilty people.

hello?

Jul 17 2008, 7:41 pm

they already had the power to stop "terror" BEFORE they changed FISA, the new changes don't make us safer, they(as mentioned) protect telecom companies from laws against spying that the bush admin. told them to break, and eliminates the oversight that protects us from unwarrented spying.

Reality Check

Jul 17 2008, 2:19 pm

It could also be used to round up the bad guys (terrorists) just as designed . What are you saying on the phone ?

kinder

Jul 17 2008, 1:34 pm

Bottom line:
It could be used for rounding up the john and jane doe's
of the u.s. for what ever reason. Now for what ever reason
there does'nt have to be a reason for any one to be hauled
off. And let's not forget, that the camps have been built
all across the u.s. to "house" john and jane doe.

Mature Adult

Jul 17 2008, 11:42 am

and you know how many people busted because of FISA ?

TropicalBrainForest

Jul 17 2008, 9:28 am

It's important to remember the part of this law where the telecom companies are getting immunity for crimes they clearly already committed. Also, if you honestly believe that "if you don't have terrorists on your speed dial you've got nothing to worry about" horse shit ask yourself why so many telecom companies gave over records of so many who "have nothing to worry about." The point is to keep innocent citizens from being harassed by the government.

Mature Adult

Jul 17 2008, 7:50 am

Thanks . Rational thought doesn't require any party affiliation .

Reality Check

Jul 17 2008, 5:40 am

to "you too" :
Maybe Obama(a Democrat) should have some of that Republican koolaid cure also ?
I hear ya Mature .

Mature Adult

Jul 16 2008, 6:18 pm

Thanks ! :o)

you too,

Jul 16 2008, 6:04 pm

good luck finding a cure for the republican koolaid you've been drinking.

Mature Adult

Jul 16 2008, 5:44 am

Poor thing , bless your heart .
I sincerly wish you luck with that .

to immature idiot

Jul 15 2008, 9:33 pm

for one thing, you clearly don't understand the issue. read this article again. I'll give you a moment... did you read it? of course not. anyway, If you had you may realize that bush already had the power to do all the "neccisary" spying on "overseas communications", and the FISA court was the thing that regulates it, issues the warrents, there was even a rule that allows them to spy first, and issue the warrent 3 days later. They had all the tools they needed to spy on terrorrists, and with fair oversight to prevent abuse of the spy program, however the FISA amendments act changes things, FISA no longer reviews individual warrents, meaning the oversight is gone, and FISA has been reduced to simply ruling on "general procedures", however often that happens. In other words they don't know or check on who is being tapped or if it's justified, and apparently thousands of phones have been tapped with this program. Who knows how many more have been tapped now that no one is watching them. My phone is already making clicky noises. To review, If it was truly about stopping or listening to terrorists, there was absolutely no need to change FISA, but they did, in the worst way. if you insist on calling me paranoid, I have every right to call you ignorant and oblivious.

hey, guess what

Jul 15 2008, 9:00 pm

you're wrong.

Mature Adult

Jul 15 2008, 11:15 am

I am directing this comment to the person below using multible id's , lets just say
to the alarmist :
FISA is not interested in you unless you're calling KNOWN TERRORIST PHONE #'s outside our borders . Maybe you just can't pass up a chance to complain , but you're really not saying anything .
If the founding fathers of our country had overseas telephone connections to known terrorists to consider , it would be unreasonable to assume they wouldn't have addressed it the same way it is being addressed now . The thing is ...they didn't . Soooo , just what is the solution to what you feel is a problem ? The subject ain't going away because you don't like it . Are you one of those people that doubt terrorists want to reek havok when they can ? I'm almost willing to bet that you were one of the many who bitched and moaned about not knowing 911 was going to happen and how the government failed to protect and now , bitch and moan because somebody is trying to do something about it ....

Jul 15 2008, 6:56 am

oh yea , heres one for ya Captain Insult :
"You can put dancing shoes on a pig but at the end of the day you still only have a pig " ....get it ?

hint: don't make things out to be something other than what it is ...

Hey below

Jul 15 2008, 6:49 am

How superior of you . ...not ! Most do not subscribe to your particular brand of paranoia . I realize you don't understand why that is and I don't think you'd get the explaination . Are you sure you know what FISA is and how it works ? It really doesn't look like it .

Jul 15 2008, 1:52 am

FISA used to be ok, it's the FISA amendments that are bad.

right

Jul 15 2008, 1:50 am

to put it even simpler, here's an old quote, "Those who would give up freedom for security deserve niether."

TropicalBrainForest

Jul 14 2008, 10:48 pm

Ok, to make this a little more simple for everyone who can't seem to comprehend why this law is terrible, lets put all the conspiracy theories and rhetoric aside and focus on what I see as the main issue here. THIS LAW TRAMPLES ALL OVER YOUR FOURTH AMENDMENT RIGHTS!!! IT GOES AGAINST THE VERY FOUNDATION OUR FOUNDING FATHERS SET FOR THIS GREAT NATION!!! If you can't see that you're foolish. Also, if you do realize that and still support the law you're even worse, a TRAITOR. Sleep well FISA supporters, you've all let your country down.

oh, and one more thing

Jul 14 2008, 6:20 pm

to the nameless "to below" jackass, if all you have to say is a simple "you're wrong" or "you don't know what you're talking about" without anything to support your claim that I'm wrong, you might as well just say "I don't get it!" or "I'll never believe you over my corperate masters! I vote R and don't care why! You're a dodo head!" because thats how childish you're being. If I went to every post I didn't like and said "nope, he's crazy!" or "shut up!" does that give me any more credability? obviously no, but thats how you're behaving, you are pathetic. kiss my grits, dildo! see what that looks like? exept here, it seems more fitting.

duhhh

Jul 14 2008, 6:07 pm

people ARE talking about this. where have you been? what, you think it's easy to get a president in trouble? just because we know what he's doing is wrong doesn't mean we have the power to stop it. not with republicans in charge who will blindly defend their precious leader with all the spin they get from fox news and their emails from the RNC. you think that because we're losing the fight we have to be wrong? keep dreaming... actually, on second thought, WAKE THE FUCK UP!

hey just a guy

Jul 14 2008, 5:34 pm

If what you said here has any merit , don't you think people with a lot more background in the legal and government business would have caught thst ? Don't you think in this election hype fest a pack of Democrats are sitting there quietly , slobbering at the jowls , to get a piece of the president, but let this slide . Do you really believe a weed head has got it eight when EVERYONE who matters doesn't ? ........ sure thing .

to below

Jul 14 2008, 5:26 pm

You don'y know the meaning of the words you use . Whateveer helps you sleep .

just a guy

Jul 14 2008, 4:28 pm

actually everything I said has a basis in fact, you just dissagree.

TropicalBrainForest

Jul 14 2008, 10:50 am

As a quick response to what TCB said:

Don't forget for a second that Barack Obama voted FOR the new FISA law. Seeing as how he could very well be the next president, why wouldn't he want to get a head start on overstepping his presidential powers. And another thing, this is America land of freedom and democracy. Unless we are a total nation of fools (which sometimes i believe we are) we will not slip into the grasp of communism or fascism. What i'm for is the government that our forefathers envisioned (minus the oppression of blacks, women, and other minority groups). Laissez faire my friends, that's what it's about, thats the reason a war was fought between 1775 and 1783. In this land the law is king and no other. That's why I propose that you all vote for Dr.Ron Paul, champion of the constitution. And if anyone tells me that Ron Paul dropped out of the race that's not true. You can still write him in and based on how terrible of choices we have for our two major parties I would guess that quite a few will be doing so.

to below

Jul 14 2008, 5:54 am

your account of what things "mean " has no basis in fact . You're paranoid .

just a guy

Jul 13 2008, 7:14 pm

In this case, the gov't already had the power to spy on terror suspects, and even do so without getting a warrent first in time sensitive cases, then get a warrent later, FISA gives them that power, but that wasn't enough for Bush, he wanted absolute power to wiretap everyone without a warrent, see instead of telling the FISA court about each case so they could see if it was justified or just eavesdropping, they now only use the court for "general guidelines" without reviewing each or any warrents, meaning that he can order ever phone and email in america to be tapped without having a court review his actions for legitimacy. warrentless wiretapping. also they share the info with lots of gov't agencies, meaning if you say on your phone that you are high as hell, or that the plants are growing nicely, that info can and will be sent to the DEA and used against you to justify a raid or set up a sting. this isn't about protecting people from terror, it's about absolute control of information flow, an all watching eye for people to fear, you may think that the innocent have nothing to fear, but what about when people simply disagree with the gov't and start dissapearing or becoming targets of political backlash? or, more likely, something said on a phone is misunderstood, taken as a threat, and the person is declared an enemy combatant and taken to secret prisons without a trial or lawyers to be waterboarded or simply never heard from again? that's how this administration has been doing things lately, or haven't you noticed? It seems absolute power corrupts, but bush is already corrupt, and wants even more power.

Common Sense

Jul 13 2008, 3:56 pm

A lot of you complained because we didn't know about 911 and made a lot of assinine assertions and just plain retarded sounding accusations . Now you want to complain because the gov . heard your whining and is doing what you indicated you wanted . I don't think a lot of you really know what your complaining about . What would you have the gov. do now ? And wouldn't you just bitch about it anyway , regardless ? Thats why a lot of you will never be taken serious ..........

TCB...re: Mr. Highlife

Jul 13 2008, 1:31 pm

The current state of the U.S.A is not Communist, it is Facist. They are on opposite ends of the political scale. You're right about the means to the end, since they are the same tools used by Communists AND Facists, (getting rid of the free press and individual rights, etc.). The difference, in very basic terms, is this: Communism is when the Government runs Business/Corporations. Facism is when Business/Corporations run the Government. The U.S.A. is currently in the latter category. Corporations are now controlling the Gov't and gaining more and more power over the Media and the People.
Keep in mind that the next election is of utmost importance because the next President will probably choose between 2 and 4 Supreme Court justices. Do you want another Republican President making those important choices? Remember, Republicans (and Libertarians) are Conservative/Right Wing/more inclined to the Facist end of the political spectrum, and they favor Corporations over People. Democrats are Liberal/Left Wing/more inclined to the Socialist/Communist end of the political spectrum. Are you voting for Corporate power or power to The People? I'll take power to The People any day. Therefore, I will be voting for a Democratic President. Barack Obama isn't perfect, but no candidate is. Also, third parties are a waste of your precious vote. This is a race between Republicans and Democrats. Let's put some flava in The White House.

The White House: Paint it Black. Vote for Obama. Vote for Democratic representatives in Congress, the Senate, etc. Once they're in office, keep their feet to the fire by calling, writing, e-mailing them and telling them what you want. Want Cannabis legalized? Tell them. If the People got gay marriage legalized in California, we can certainly end Cannabis prohibition. If you're a pot smoker 18 or older, register. Get your smoking buddies to register. Have a party on Election Day, go to the polls, vote, then have an afterparty and enjoy the feeling of being an active American.

medGROWER

Jul 13 2008, 10:40 am

The Communist will rule the world and it will be a better place to live !!

kinder

Jul 13 2008, 10:29 am

To Common Sense:
I don't think BULLSHIT has a bright side. I don't mean to
slam you,but.....
We've been sold out by the current admin.
How much much are you willing to pay for fuel befor you can't buy food or pay that house note?
Now i could care less about all this stuff save a few things.
The bottom line is America, is being LOOTED, in plain sight.

TropicalBrainForest

Jul 13 2008, 9:56 am

Besides the fact that this law allows for nearly unchecked government surveillance, this law allows all of Bush's telecom push-over cronies to get off of the charges for laws they have already broken. This is ridiculous, the president cannot order people to break the law. Even soldiers must refuse illegal orders from their commanders.
And don't forget about the part of this law that would keep George Bush from being prosecuted for war crimes that he may or may not have committed. The point is however that if he did commit war crimes there should be provisions for holding him accountable and at least a strong investigation into the claims. Besides, it seems to me that the U.S. government has been getting along just fine with the old FISA law which has been failing the people since i believe 1978. Either way we haven't had a terrorist attack in 7 years so why fix the law unless you aim to break it anyways.

As the poster child for democracy and freedom for the world, which i firmly believe America is, we are setting an extremely bad example by folding on our fundamental principals of how this country should operate just because it's a time of war. THIS IS THE 4TH AMENDMENT BEING SHIT ON BY YOUR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT! What's next, will police be able to search you without warrants or probable cause? Will other amendments be trampled over just because they get in the way of the expansion of government power?

Shame on the Bush administration and shame on anyone who supports this law. As I've quoted before and i shall quote again the great Ben Franklin, "Those who give up civil liberties in the name of protection deserve neither."

Common Sense

Jul 13 2008, 5:54 am

You people are bitching and moaning about something you know little about . This article , and ones like it , is nothing but bullshit disguised as journalism .
Hell , if you check , you'll see Obama's even for it . Talk about doom and gloom bullshit ........................

kinder

Jul 12 2008, 10:41 pm

If this goes people will start vanishing in the night!!!
Soon we all will be enemies of the state, just for saying
GEORGE W BUSH IS A SPINELESS WIMP A PUPPET WHEN HE "TOOK" OFFICE, HE WAS ALREADY A LAME DUCK. AND AIN'T NO DOUGHT BOUT IT.
FRIDAY, I WATCHED THE DOW DIP BELOW 11.000,WHILE CRUD HIT A RECORD HIGH. "WE'LL FEEL IT AT THE PUMP SOON"
GEORGE W BUSH IS ALLOWING FREEDOM TO BE RAPED,PILLEGED,PLUNDERED. ANYTHING HE HAS TO SAY IT'S A LIE
CAUSE JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING HE'S SAID IT'S BEEN A LIE.
SOON I WON'T BE ALLOWED TO SPEAK AT ALL!!!!!!! LIKE THIS.

Mr. Weedman in L.A.

Jul 12 2008, 6:35 pm

GEORGE W. BUSH? FUCK THAT PUTO

Mr. Highlife

Jul 12 2008, 5:26 pm

Why does it sound like America, the land of democracy, keep forming laws and plans to violate our freedom like this. Each day that President Bush and his staff are in office is a day That sees democracy slowly dying and withering into an evil sounding form of what I can only describe as new-age communisism.
After all, didnt communism start like this in the first place? Take away free press. Then individual liberties. Then shift power from the people towards the government and it's sponsered agencies.

WE WILL ALL BE FUCKED IF THIS CONTINUES

Jul 12 2008, 3:45 pm

in north america they call putin a rat